Re-Thinking Conventional Friendship Wisdom with Jacob Marquez

Calling someone you haven’t spoken to in two years isn’t weird; it’s just being human.

Today’s guest is Jacob Marquez, also known as J. Henry, a Seattle-based tech entrepreneur and musical artist whose approach to relationships challenges a lot of conventional friendship wisdom.

Jacob is the founder of Seattle’s Best Brunch, bringing creatives together to collaborate and spotlight each other’s work, and he’s developing an app that helps people nurture their relationships. 

What drew me to Jacob wasn’t what he was building but how he approaches connection. He’ll call someone out of the blue after years of silence, and he thinks that friendships can be reciprocal – even if one person talks about themself the whole time. 

Our conversation touches on everything including low-maintenance friendships, systems for connection, and the impact of redefining intimacy, and I think it will have us all thinking twice about our assumptions regarding how friendship should work. 

In this episode you’ll hear about:

• Jacob’s work in community connection, including Seattle’s Best Brunch and his app, Connect, which provides systems for staying connected
• The different systems each of us uses to track and maintain friendships; plus, why it’s important to be open to change and growth in our friendships as time goes on
• Different ways friendships can actually be reciprocal – even if you don’t think they are at first glance!
• The entrances into different communities you could be finding just by being open and communicative about what you’re looking for

Resources & Links

On Instagram check out Jacob’s personal Instagram and his account for Seattle’s Best Brunch.

Like what you hear? Visit my website, leave me a voicemail, and follow me on Instagram and TikTok!

Want to take this conversation a step further? Send this episode to a friend. Tell them you found it interesting and use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out!

This episode is sponsored by Slowly, a digital pen pal app used by over 10 million people worldwide. If you’ve been looking for a low-pressure way to connect with someone completely outside your normal friendship circle, this is it. Exchange letters at your own pace, no small talk panic required.

Download Slowly free and get 30% off Slowly Plus using my link: https://open.slowly.app/miXL/l8ei5iw6

WANT MORE?

My book, Are We Friends Yet? hits shelves June 16. Get on the waitlist for pre-order bonuses + a first look.

Dive into The Connection Reset. A 10-day private podcast to help you see the abundance of connection that already exists in your day-to-day (Yes. Really. I promise you have more than you realize). Start today. 

Transcript

Podcast Intro/Outro: 1:26

All right, gang. Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family. Cheers. Hello, hello, and welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander. Each week we talk about what is working(and what is not) in our friendships, community and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship

Alex Alexander [Narration]: 2:24

I'm about to share some friendship advice that might sound completely backwards if you have a friend who talks about themselves 95% of the time, that doesn't automatically make them a bad friend. And calling someone you haven't spoken to in two years, that's not weird. That's just being human. Today, I'm talking with Jacob Marquez, also known as J. Henry, a Seattle based tech entrepreneur and musical artist who thinks about relationships in a way that challenge a lot of conventional friendship wisdom. You've heard Jacob is the founder of Seattle's Best brunch, where he brings creatives together to collaborate and spotlight each other's work. He's also developing an app called connect to that helps people nurture quality relationships, and he serves on the board of shun Pike, supporting Seattle artists with resources and fiscal sponsorship. Now, Jacob and I met at a community builder's dinner here in the Seattle area. Then after that, we met up for coffee, and after one conversation, I knew I had to have him on the podcast. But what drew me to Jacob isn't just what he's building, it's how he approaches connection in our conversation, we dive into why he'll call someone out of the blue after years of silence. We talk about the myth of low maintenance friendship, why having systems for staying connected actually makes sense, and what our systems are and how redefining intimacy can completely change your relationships. This is a conversation that's going to have us all thinking twice about a lot of assumptions about how friendship should work, and I think you're going to find it as refreshing as I did. Let's dive in.

Alex Alexander: 4:20

So, because I haven't been to a Seattle's Best Brunch yet, what's normally happening at a Seattle's Best Brunch.

Jacob Marquez: 4:27

So it's still new, and so I'm experimenting a lot with what it is and what the format is, and what people like and what people don't like, and also, more importantly, what people say they like, but then do they actually show up? You know? It is Seattle, so flakiness is definitely a big part of it. So it kind of it fluctuates in between two different formats. The first one is, it's a small, intimate group, 10 to 15 people, and we get together and I interview an artist. It's mainly music, because that's where I'm starting. That's my niche right now, but I would love to grow it and have people that are like graphic designers do their own version, and they they interview another graphic designer or whatever. And so intimate setting, I'm interviewing this artist in two weeks prior. I'm researching their music. I'm diving in their lyrics, the evolution of their Sonics, right, and their sound, and what they talk about, trying to understand other interviews that they've done or material that they put out, to really build a picture of, like, Who is this person, right? And why are they making this music? And let's, let's, like, dive into the story of that, like the first one stion, who's, like, this incredible artist, and he's also, he throws a lot like Easter Eggs in his music. So it was so fun to dive in and be like, in this song, you're, like, sampling this old song that you made, because it ties into the story in this way. And sometimes they're outlandish theories, but most of the time, it at least starts a conversation about, well, actually it means this, and it's because this thing in life. So that's the one format the Saturday we're going to experiment with, attaching on a small performance to that, and then that'll. Kind of be the new format of that. Let's say that's like Seattle's Best Brunch plus. And then the other formats a little bit simpler. It's just me, the artist. We find a cool little space to sit in, and we just have a conversation. We're talking about the same thing, but there's not an audience. There's less of, like, the layers on top of it, and it's just more about, let's just talk about your art and really put a spotlight on who you are in the music that you're creating.

Alex Alexander: 6:58

So when you created Seattle's Best Brunch, was it like purely from your own curiosity? Is it because you felt like there was a need in Seattle?

Jacob Marquez: 7:06

Part of the impetus for me creating Seattle's Best Brunch. There's like, two pieces. One is as an artist and someone that's sober and someone that's old enough where I want to go to bed at 930

Alex Alexander: 7:20

Yeah,

Jacob Marquez: 7:20

you know?

Alex Alexander: 7:22

I do know, yeah, yeah. I'm like, I don't want I will. And I every time I do, I love it still, but I don't really want to go perform at a bar at like, 10pm like, it's just not for me. This is not here for it. And so I'm like, Can I do that during the day? And so that's kind of where the brunch idea came from. And then the other part is, you know, I grew up with, like, VH, one behind the music. Song exploder is, like the new Netflix version of that ish, all these documentaries of musicians. Because not only do I love the music, like, I love the story behind it, right? Like, why did Prince create Purple Rain in the way he did? Or, like, Why did Elton John go through this phase, and then eventually went through that phase. Like, I love those stories and those conversations, and I feel like nowadays they're even more important because we consume music so fast. Yeah, you know, we hear it one week, and then we're on to the the next thing, the next week, and it's really doing a disservice to the artist in the work and, like, the energy, and also for the listeners, doing a disservice for how you connected with the song, yeah, and saying, like, Well, we had a strong connection, but I'm going to go on to the next thing you know, even Steve Lacy, he said recently, he was like, I'm not going to make another album, until you appreciate my current album and the way that it should be appreciated. And once that happens, maybe I'll go back to the studio. And I think that's, you know, that's the energy. You should be an advocate for your music. And I think, as a community in Seattle, like we should be advocates for local Seattle music. Because if you travel around, people outside of Seattle will look at us like, you have so much musical talent there. But you come to Seattle, and sometimes it's hard to figure out, like, where is it? Why aren't we promoting it? Well, I think that's what I'm trying to say, is like, as somebody who is not, it's kind of an interesting thing, right? Like, I don't identify as somebody who is in the arts community, yeah, at all. But I enjoy experiencing art, learning about art, learning you know more about art theory and anything, right? That's just not a space I have taken classes on, explored, been that interested in until recent years and in Seattle, even though I have tried to look, I haven't spent hours and hours and hours, but I have actively been looking, it's kind of hard to find how to get in, like, how to go to a think, minus maybe, like the Art Walk in Pioneer Square, yeah. And maybe that's just kind of the entry point for people, yeah, it's like, I don't know, where do I go? Shows you're right, but I also like to go to bed early, and music is something you're deeply passionate about. I mean, I would say I'm more interested in like, the galleries or the

Jacob Marquez: 11:44

like, material art, yeah.

Alex Alexander: 11:46

I mean, I am music too, performance art. I'm very interested in. But yeah, that's like, where do you go?

Jacob Marquez: 11:54

Yeah, well, I mean, to tack on to the like TED Talk that just gave, yeah, there are people. I mean, there's a lot of organizations and good people in Seattle really trying to advocate and promote Seattle, yeah, you know, sometimes good intentions are masked by business, and that's just the reality of it, right? And so even if you have great local music, if you could get someone that's more popular, that's going to bring more ticket sales, you know, you have to, as a business person, you have to think what's more appropriate for my business, because times are tough right now, you know, yeah, and so I recognize that that's always a consideration and but there's always good intentions.

Alex Alexander [Narration]: 12:39

Listening back to this conversation is actually really interesting for me, because. It's a perfect real life example of what it takes to actually even start to find some sense of belonging in a community. You know, I talk a lot about going out and finding groups around your interests and, well, I don't think I've ever made it sound like that's just the easiest thing of all time. This conversation Jacob and I just had, shows you the reality of what even a small piece of that process looks like. So let's take me in the Seattle art scene. It's definitely something I'm curious about. Okay, I follow a few people on social media, and I am always paying attention to the events that they mention, and I'm sitting there thinking, like, okay, would I feel awkward, right? I have no sense of belonging in this community. Would I feel awkward going to that event? Do I feel like that's an easy entry point? What would I talk about like, I'm definitely a newbie, but I'm interested, right? And the honest truth is, I have put almost no effort into actually getting connected into this community, me following some people. That's not effort into me actually getting connected. So what would it look like if I started to put some effort to build a sense of belonging there, right? A very simple kind of medium low effort would be that I could attend something like the Seattle Art Walk, which is literally like a public street fair in our Pioneer Square neighborhood. I could go. I don't need to buy a ticket. I don't really need to talk to anyone. I don't need to stay that long. I could just wander around for 10 minutes and leave no one would know that I was there. A little higher of an effort would be me actually picking one of those events I see on social media and buying a ticket and attending right and talking to people I've never met before about a topic that I feel like a beginner in. So that seems kind of scary. But what I want to point out in this conversation is that just by connecting with Jacob at a completely unrelated event, right? We were at a community builders dinner that is not focused on the art scene, I suddenly have a bridge into this world that I have been curious about. Jacob is really plugged into the art scene, and through one authentic connection, he could be a person that helps me start to feel a little more comfortable put myself in places where I start to find a sense of belonging in that community. This whole conversation kind of reminds me of a strategy that I used to use when people asked me how I got into the wedding planning world way back in the day. Now, instead of trying to force my way in or send out a million resumes to wedding planners, what I did is I simply just started telling everyone I met the same phrase I would say I would go to a networking event, or, I don't know, somebody would just ask me at a party, like a Christmas party, what I do for a living. And at the time, I was working in events, but I was the donor, basically the donor Events Coordinator for the Science Center here in the Seattle area, which is a nonprofit events position, and I wanted to get back into weddings. So what I would do is I would tell people what I did, and then I would say, but what I really want to do is I want to find an established wedding planner who's taking on additional planners. And I would do that over and over again. I work at the Science Center. What I want to do is this, and that, in the end, is exactly how I got connected to the woman that I ended up working with. I told enough people that somebody said, Hey, you should call so and so. Now you can use the same approach for any community. If I was a little more serious than I am at the moment about getting connected into the Seattle art scene, I could just start mentioning to people that what I really want to do is get more connected into the Seattle art scene. And people might start connecting me with events, artists galleries like imagine if I had been at the community dinner and I had said that exact phrase to Jacob, sometimes, finding your people isn't about forcing your way into a specific scene. It's about staying open to authentic connections wherever they happen, and being clear about what you're looking for.

Alex Alexander: 17:20

So I do have a question for you as somebody who, I guess, is now like leading a group, right, trying to start a community, I think a lot of people want to do that, but it can be kind of right. It's like vulnerable. Will people show up? Do people like it? I mean, you're already talking about the very beginning here, when people say they want. Something, but then do they actually get in the room for it? Like, what's it been like starting like an open to the public community group?

Jacob Marquez: 17:53

First and foremost, it's been invigorating and very rewarding. And I've also been able to really dive into, again, great local art and artists that I've known about, and this actually brings me to a point that I wanted to make from your previous question, artists that I have known about and just didn't take the time to go consume their art, right? And I think that's the other piece of this. As people that want to be consumers of local Seattle Art, we need to put in a little bit of work, right? Because small artists, their challenge is distribution. So, you know, we need to be a little bit more. Even Speaking for myself, like I need to say, if I like that artist, I need to take some time to go listen to their music. So it's been great in that way, a big question that I always have to ask myself is, why am I doing this?

Alex Alexander: 18:48

It's energy, time, yeah,

Jacob Marquez: 18:51

sometimes money, but I run a pretty lean operation, and, yeah, there's a lot of, like, cognitive energy and dissonance as well too, right? Like I'm creating this thing. Why aren't people showing up? Aren't they more excited? They said they wanted this, and I'm giving it to them. Why aren't they using it like and I feel the same way about my music, too, sometimes in other things. And the thing I come back to is that core question, like, why am I doing this, and if I'm doing it for the audience and for just the numbers game of people, then, yeah, maybe I should be a little like, frustrated, but then it's, it's a challenge, like, Okay, well, I need to change my strategy, but I'm not. I'm doing it more to connect, right, and build a synergy and build a space where there's vulnerability and conversation and collaboration, and that always happens, whether it's one person, 10 or 15 people, or even more. As long as I'm building that space, I find it successful. So anyone thinking about doing the same what's your goal? You need to figure out what your goal is, and if your goal is, I just want to get 10,000 people into a room. I would still ask you, why do you want that? If it's purely ego, you're probably in it for the wrong reason. But if it's because you want to create this frequency amongst 10,000 people, then yeah, that's dope. Let's figure out how to make that happen.

Alex Alexander [Narration]: 20:24

I want to pause here and give Jacob and anyone who is creating, facilitating planning part of the planning committee for in person events, some serious kudos as someone who was an event planner for over 10 years, I understand exactly how much work this is. It's not just vulnerable to put yourself out there and ask people to show up, whether that's a monthly art scene event, an intimate friend group, movie night in your house, a popsicle hangout on your front porch, or whatever kind of event you're creating, doing in person events adds layers of complexity. Most people just don't think about. If you've never done it, there's logistics, location, ticketing platform, or if you're not selling tickets, how are you funding this? Where are people going to sit? What if it rains? What if nobody shows up? What if too many people show up? Every single time, I have an offline conversation with somebody who is creating in person events, whether that is Jacob, I talk to another Events Manager, Events Producer, here in the Seattle area, earlier this week, when I'm having these chats with people, the first thing I tell them is, thank you from the bottom of my heart, thank you, because I can sit behind this microphone and have conversations all day Long. But what people like Jacob are doing, creating actual spaces where humans can connect face to face. It's vital work, and it's so much work that, honestly, it's part of the reason I don't do it anymore, because I burnt out hardcore before I started this career on doing that kind of work. So if you're someone creating in person community, whether it's a big public event or just organizing monthly hangouts with friends, please know that what you're doing matters, and it's harder than most people realize, and I hope you give yourself credit for that. Thank you so much for what you're doing.

Alex Alexander: 22:47

I also am curious, because for you to, like, create this community group and right, you're saying, like, take the ego out of it, and it's about something bigger. That must mean that connection is just like, a pretty big value in your life. Like, I think you probably see that it's worthwhile. That's why you're putting all this, all your resources, time, energy, thought, money, yeah, into that. Like, what other ways are community and connection? How else do they show up in your life in a big way? Are there other ways you are, like, prioritizing this?

Jacob Marquez: 23:23

Yeah. So I think connection is at the end of the day, like we only know ourselves, the people that we're connected through. There's a Blue Scholar song, which, let's bring local Seattle music back. Yeah, let's do it. Blues Scholar song. Dope. Hip hop group that really changed my perspective on what Hip Hop could be. They had the songs like we only know ourselves. The problem is, I took that line and changed it slightly, so all I know is what I wrote. Anyway, we only know ourselves through the people that we cross.

Alex Alexander [Narration]: 23:57

The joy of this format of the podcast with me popping in like this is when somebody can't remember something, or we need a fact check, or they're paraphrasing. I can look it up and I can tell you. So I pulled up Sagaba by the Blue Scholars, and I found the exact lyrics that Jacob was mentioning. It says, "Eyes up to the sky, she sighs / I need nobody, true indeed, sister /but you still need everybody / because we hardly know ourselves if we know nobody else / and only in our loneliness can home become a hell."

Jacob Marquez: 24:41

and it took me a while to get to that point, but even if I look back like I'm only where I'm at today through the connections that I built and the people that I came across and just had a synergy with, and was just kind to and had a conversation with, and they said, Hey, I have this opportunity. Here you go. Or like, I need my house painted. Would you be up for painting my house when I was in high school and I needed money for college, and so, yeah, connection is a big part of it, and other ways that I lean into that. I know if this was a leading question, but Ali oop, it is. I'm building a app that's all around, one-on one, connection specifically and really helping people lean into their good intention around being a good friend, being a good son, like I need to call my mom more. So this app helps me do that, remembering things you know, just really being great at connection, even if, yeah, you need a little little app to help you do that. That's fine. It's all about the intention in the act.

Alex Alexander: 25:45

I've said this a million times on here, like, whether people want to admit it or not, I truly think that the people that, if you look at somebody, you think, like, wow, they're really crushing it in their connections or community, like they have some secret system they're just not telling you about. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, I have a calendar on my Google Calendar. You know, you can have, like, multiple sub calendars. You can, like, toggle on and off. Toggle on and off. I have a calendar that's just like friends and I will put anything on there from, like, Dani has an important meeting on Tuesday to so and so's birthday to, this is the date that so and so, like, this is the day that Kaylin leaves on her trip. This is the day her vacation ends, and she shows up at a family wedding, you know. So I can message and be like, Okay, we're all in the house with the family. How we doing over there? It could be the tiniest, most inconsequential thing to a major milestone like that is in my calendar, because otherwise I'll forget. So I think an app makes total sense. Like, people just aren't talking about it. But people have systems.

Jacob Marquez: 26:51

Yeah? A lot of people do, yeah. I mean, I was using notion, yes, the app. I'm a huge notion fan. You too. Most people have a system. I guess I'm curious to ask you, like, is the calendar working? Are there things that you would improve about it if you had a magic wand? Like, what would take it to the next level make your life easier?

Alex Alexander: 27:12

Yeah, so, you know, currently, it's just one calendar. There are, I guess, like, varying levels of importance, and I don't I could probably fix this by spending the time to go in there and, like, add reminders for certain things that are important that I message, maybe on that day, like, I cannot forget that day kind of thing. For example, let's say somebody is having a surgery. I like, for sure, want to make sure I message. Lunch that day kind of thing. But meanwhile, if it's like, maybe the big meeting, maybe that's okay. If I ask a day or two later, like, oh, wasn't your meeting on Tuesday? You know, it's Thursday, honestly, they might be busy until then. Like, that's okay. So I could fix that by going in and adding reminders, but I just don't do it because currently I want it to be like the lowest lift possible, right? These things are happening in passing, and I am a person who will like, I don't even try to be subtle about it. I will pull my phone out like, normally my phone's away when I hang out with friends, but if somebody tells me, like an important milestone or date, I will pull it up, add my calendar, like, do it? Set my phone back in my purse, kind of thing?

Jacob Marquez: 28:34

What's their response to that?

Alex Alexander: 28:36

I feel like, normally, people don't care. It's pretty quick. Like, that's the point of the low lift. Like, I'm not setting reminders. I'm literally just being like, Kalin flight, yeah, and done, set my phone down like it's, I think it's, you know, 1520 seconds, 30 seconds. Like I'm it's fast, or I will do like Siri, remind me Dani's meeting next Tuesday. But I'll go in and, like, add that to my calendar later. So again, that's a very quick thing. Yeah, I don't like people care. Maybe it's just because I do it enough. I don't know. Do you find that your friends would care if you had a system versus remembering on your own?

Jacob Marquez: 29:19

That's an interesting question. But before I ask because, from like, a psychological standpoint, I wonder if they know you're taking a note on them. And if that like to me, if, if I saw someone pull out their phone and they're like, I want to make sure I take a note on this so I can follow up with you. Like, Oh, damn, You're so thoughtful. But if they didn't know you were taking a note, I wonder if they just think you're texting someone,

Alex Alexander: 29:49

maybe. But honestly, they probably just know that I'm a terrible texter. Yeah, like, the joke in my friends is like, I'm so present with people that nobody else is getting a hold of me, like I'm offline if I'm with somebody else. So I'm also, like the photographer of the friend group often. So maybe that's part of it is I'm constantly whipping out my phone to just take a couple photos, tuck it back in my pocket kind of thing. Yeah, like it is in my hand, but it's like in and out very quickly kind of thing, so I don't know that's a great question, but yeah, they've probably all waited for a text for me for a while and know that it's not what I'm doing. Yeah, texting is actually a goal of mine to be better about responding really,

Jacob Marquez: 30:42

totally, yeah,

Alex Alexander: 30:44

yeah, yeah.

Jacob Marquez: 30:46

I mean Apple, really, you use iPhone, right? Yeah. I assume that they should really just create a feature that allows you to, you know, what would save me so much time if they just allowed me to filter for unread text messages?

Alex Alexander: 31:01

I think you,

Jacob Marquez: 31:02

I don't think you can,

Alex Alexander: 31:03

you can't? no how many unread text messages do you have right now?

Jacob Marquez: 31:08

Not that many. Well, no, that's not true. Like 100 but like 100 hold up, listen,

Alex Alexander: 31:14

okay, I thought I was bad.

Jacob Marquez: 31:19

I like talking about being a good friend. I have 100

Alex Alexander: 31:21

unread Well, no, I don't know. Maybe that's like, you know how they send you the code you have to, you know, put in your two step verification. Maybe that's some marketing. I unsubscribe from every text marketing thing ever. I hate that. Yeah, I love it. It's sad, okay. Well, then that's fair. I immediately type, stop,

Jacob Marquez: 31:40

yeah, that should be an app. Actually, what I was going to say is, yeah, so you can't filter for only unread, but then a lot of times, like, a text message will get buried, right? So if I just bring it to the top, that'd be so clutch. I want to answer your question, though. So for the app that I'm building, I researched, like, I talked to like, 50 people about friends and like, how do you interact with people? How do you define a friend? Are there different levels? How often do you talk to them? How do you talk to them? Do you have a system? How do you remember important dates? It was pretty astonishing. How many people said it's not important for me to remember important details about my friends,

Alex Alexander: 32:27

really, wow. Okay,

Jacob Marquez: 32:30

in the sense of, like, you know, they're having a big meeting on Monday. It's not important that I remember that or whatever, because there's also this sentiment about if we're not going to be friends, because I don't remember that. Obviously our friendship isn't strong enough for us to be friends,

Alex Alexander: 32:48

so I do agree with that. I don't do it out of thinking that they will think I'm not their friend, unless maybe it's I don't know like I think it's varying levels, it's a meeting. I absolutely don't think that if it's like, my friend is getting induced to have a baby, yeah, you know, yeah. Like, maybe I should text, maybe not that day, but like, within the week, or something like, kind of thing, if I'm not, you know, already, like LinkedIn with their partner on anyways, yes. Like, maybe a bigger milestone thing. It's not that, it's actually more that, honestly, it gives me an excuse to message them, and that's not that I need an excuse. I could just be like, how's your day, how's whatever. But for me, it's like an easy in, right? It's a quick message of just like, hey, that meeting was yesterday. How'd it go? Yeah. And I could just say, like, how's your day? Maybe it just takes it to the extra level. Like, that's why,

Jacob Marquez: 33:51

yeah. The other piece is, most people need an excuse, you know, and I'm not. I'm the type of person where, you know, in this app, you can get random reconnections. They're just people on your like, it's just based on your context, right? And I'm like, Oh, I haven't talked to that person in like, two years. I'm gonna call them. And we're like, hey, haven't talked to you in a long time. You popped up. Just want to see how you're doing, right? So many people are like, Well, what do I talk about? Like, why would I just call them? I'm like, I don't know, because you like them, yeah, you know, at some point in your life you had a connection,

Alex Alexander: 34:30

okay, so it doesn't blow a lot of people's minds that you just said that you call somebody you haven't talked to in two years, yeah? You just, you just call them up. You just, you're like, Hey, how you doing? Yeah, I love it, yeah. Why not? Why not? Why not?

Jacob Marquez: 34:46

Why not? I mean, I mean, that's my thing, you know, like people over complicate relationships, and that was another thing you know, as you're talking about, like, you agree with the sentiment that if I need to remember details, and we're obviously not friends, and at some level, I could get behind that sentiment. But, you know, I'm married. I've been married for three years, been together for 10 years. You know, at the end of the day, all relationships are the same. To a certain degree. You have two people, sometimes more interacting. You're creating some sort of contract, some agreement and how you interact, right? Some like expectation

Alex Alexander: 35:35

with your husband or with your friends, with anyone, okay, anyone.

Jacob Marquez: 35:41

I mean, every relationship is you're you're coming into a contract with someone, and that doesn't mean it's transactional, but it's also okay if there are transactions like that's what a relationship is. We're transacting, I'm bidding for your attention, and there's a transaction where I get something back, and then we just go through that flow, and through that we build stronger relationships. I think what I'm trying to say is like, there's a lot of people that are okay with like, this is what a relationship is. And for me, I'm like, but wouldn't you want a relationship that's way better than that? If you're just like, I just need this cool your thing.

Alex Alexander: 36:23

I think I think I get what you're saying. I have an episode all about low maintenance. Friends like this concept of low maintenance. Friends like, What even is that? And also, is it really low maintenance? Because what I think is that when people have convinced themselves to accept that bare minimum, that they're actually doing so much work, mentally to be like, Oh, well, I don't need to talk to them all the time. I should not call them. I shouldn't bother them. Like there is a whole amount of maintenance you are doing to suppress your urge to connect to that person. And so at the end of the day, is it really low maintenance? Yeah, because I would say that it's not. It's not and that's different than, you know, like the ebbs and flows of a friendship, or maybe you talk to someone a lot, and then you talk to them a little less at a moment, and then you just feel that urge to call them, and you call them like, I would say that is, is different than how a lot of people are doing, quote, unquote, low maintenance friendship.

Jacob Marquez: 37:30

Yeah? So I want to riff on that, yeah for a second. So back in the day, I loved low maintenance friends. Loved them. Yeah, and I think what this really boils down to is vulnerability and enoughness. I love them because I so I had a very tumultuous relationship with my parents and people that as I was growing up, I attached myself to to feel enough, yep. And over time, I learned like, Oh, if I don't attach to someone, I don't have to go through this, like, potentially very vulnerable and sometimes like, ego hitting experience, you know, in high school that showed up. Of like, I don't want to feel too needy, but, oh, that's rooted in enoughness, because if I'm needy, that I'm not lovable enough, or there's something wrong with me where, because I'm like, they don't want to interact back in that way, or whatever. Yeah, and I'd say I've gone through a lot of therapy. I still love my therapist. Shout out to her. If you need a therapist, hit me up and I'll connect you. I've gone through a lot of work around enoughness, and I'd say as I've felt more comfortable in my vulnerability and my enoughness, I've also felt more comfortable being like, No, that's a person that I want to build a very strong relationship with, and I'm okay putting myself out there, because that's important to me, and if they don't reciprocate, that's also okay. But I think if I had to take a guess, that's probably where a lot of this comes from, because friendships are vulnerable.

Alex Alexander: 39:25

Yeah, they are. Any connection is vulnerable, yeah, I would argue on some spectrum of vulnerability, yeah, and even the simplest connections could actually be some of your most vulnerable,

Jacob Marquez: 39:37

like this one,

Alex Alexander: 39:38

yeah, yeah. Like we're sharing this conversation right now. First of all, thank you for sharing. I appreciate that you and I could go on and on about tumultuous childhoods, it sounds like for a really long time, also shout out to my therapist the many hours we have spent together. But what I love about what you were saying is that I think so often people right when we talk about connection or relationship, so often people are focused on the other person, right? Do they like me? Am I enough for them? Like, what are they thinking? What are they doing? And I, what I love about what you're saying is like, you have decided that you would like to pursue a connection with this person. That's what you want. Now they could decide something different. That's fine, but you're going to make your effort and your energy to try and do it, and maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but at the end of the day, you did what you wanted, which was to pursue that connection. That's just like such a new way for so many people to think about connection. But I agree with you, like that's the way to go about it and not lose your sanity.

Jacob Marquez: 40:46

Yeah, and I will comment that just because it's it's something you want doesn't mean it's selfish, right? I really want to separate those two things, you know, because a relationship is always reciprocal in some way. For this talk, we've connected over coffee, and we did have this conversation about, like, what if you have a friend who only talks about themselves? Yeah, and my argument was, it could still be reciprocal, if you know what you're getting out of that relationship. And I have plenty of friends where we're super close, and I hang out with them regularly, but I know that when I hang out with them, 95% of is going to be talking about them, and that's fine, because I enjoy their stories, or I just like them as a person, or maybe they are a really great friend in another way. And I'm like, it's worth it for me to sit here and listen to them, and I love listening to people too, and asking questions. So it all, it comes back to kind of where we started this, like, what are you in the relationship for? And then also just knowing that's enough and you're enough, and just go do it.

Alex Alexander: 41:58

There'll be so many things in this podcast episode that people are like, wait what? Because I agree with you. Like, when we so for everybody that is, I guess, not, up on this. You and I met What, like six weeks ago, a month ago, like a community event. At the end, we were like, Hey, let's grab coffee. We had kind of a similar conversation to this, and now people are getting to listen in on our second hangout. And you had mentioned this, you know, even if you don't feel or even if that person, like 95% of the conversation is about them, you still go and I at coffee was like, okay, wait because I agree with you, but it's not very often I find someone right that is not the like societal message that is out there. The message is. Like, if they don't give you something back, or they don't give you, know, 50....30, whatever, percent of your the time to you, people must have a number, yeah, where it's like, oh, that passed the threshold. I don't know people, so maybe something for people. Think about, like, Do you have a number? Because I'm with you, like, I will go and hang out with people that I enjoy, even if I know that very little of it's going to be about me. And not every friendship is like that, but some are, and I know that, and I know also what I enjoy, like you were saying about that person. Like, here's an example for people that are really confused that friend, let's say they really talk about themselves all the time, but maybe they are my most spontaneous friend, and that's what I get out of it. That's what I love about it, is that they push me to be more spontaneous, which is something I often like crave and I know that if we're together, I have no idea where the night is about to go in the best way possible, and I'm gonna go home feeling so fulfilled, even if I didn't sit there and share my life updates for 50% of the time.

Jacob Marquez: 44:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My example is very similar. There's this person that I go hang out with them, they generally only talk about themselves. They'll ask me a question, but they'll find a way to bring it back to them. But I know if stuff hits the fan, they're a ride or die. They're like, I got your back. Who do you need? Who do I need to call? And sometimes I gotta chill them out, like, yeah, it's not that serious. But Esther Perel, yeah, who I also love, has a very similar conversation around intimate relationships. Now, arguably, most relationships are intimate. It's very varying magnitudes to which they're intimate, but she's like this notion that your partner has to be everything for you is so whack and toxic and often leads to very strenuous relationships that break because It's like a high bar that one, most people can't achieve, and two, like, you actually don't even want your partner to achieve that, because there's so much more value in you saying, my partner gives me all these things, and then I go hang out with the homies to get the other things. And it's so much more fulfilling. And friends are the same way, right? Like, you can hang out with these friends to get satiated in this way, and they come hang out with these friends, and sometimes they come together. And this notion that, like, if your friend doesn't meet this checklist, is wild to me. I mean, it's very again, it's very akin to dating nowadays, where there's some checklist, and if they don't meet it, you just, like, run through a bunch of people that's hard to reach and obtain, and you're just going to be stuck in dating world for a long time.

Alex Alexander: 45:58

Yeah. I also, every time I think about exactly we're talking about, this idea of kind of like spreading it out, right? You need more people than just your partner or your best friend, like, there's this singular person that appears in friendship too. And I always say, I always think to myself, like, do I want to be that person, like the person that is expecting that of their partner? Do they want to do and be all the things like, so much pressure, so much I can't imagine living under the weight of that. And then what happens when somebody changes or grows or shifts or becomes right, has a new interest, a new passion, a new identity, and now suddenly, you know, example would be, let's say, right? I've been talking about how I want to get more into the Seattle art scene, and I'm sure my husband would like maybe go to a show or two, but he's not, he's, I don't think he's going to get as deep into it as I am. Similarly, that man goes and sees, speaking of art, he sees like, 60 plus movies in theaters. He sees every movie that's like, up for a nomination, even at like, the small festivals. It's like a whole thing he loves. Like, that's his thing. I don't want to go see those movies. Yeah, give me the blockbusters and the rom coms, and I'm out on 90% of the rest of it. And so if the expectation is that he wants somebody to experience that with and when he started seeing movies, similar to me, going maybe to art shows, and he has to figure like we aren't into that, and when we met 15 and a half years ago, like he wasn't that into movies. Days, and I wasn't that into art, like we didn't, we didn't agree on that when we got, you know, we got married eight years ago, like we've grown and changed. Yeah, so I think that just adds so much pressure to that person. Same with like, quote, unquote, best friends. I don't really love the term best friend, but if you're expecting that, your best friend is going to absolutely get every part of you as life changes and you develop new phases and new interests. And like, that's impossible. It would be impossible for me to do that. That's my take. People are crazy that expect that.

Jacob Marquez: 48:18

Yeah, there's high expectations.

Alex Alexander: 48:21

And like, I don't think anybody would want to have to do that themselves, like you would buckle under the pressure.

Jacob Marquez: 48:27

Oh yeah. If I had to go to every one of my husband's like, tennis practices, we'd probably get divorced. That's not how I'm trying to spend my time.

Alex Alexander: 48:37

Yeah, no, it's not my thing. And so go find your people who support you in that area, who have that same interest, who can lean in, who can, you know, have two hour long conversations about the newest Seattle musicians with you? Yeah. Like, I want that for you. Thanks. And I actually sorry. This is, like, not a tangent, but a side thing. I said this in a I was on somebody else's podcast,

Jacob Marquez: 49:04

nice,

Alex Alexander: 49:05

and I said this thing that, as you know, you say something, sometimes you're like, Oh, that was really good. I don't know where that came from. It was this, like, we think of intimacy as this idea of, say, you and I have been best friends for a long time, even though we're only two hangouts in and we think of intimacy as, like, I can do all the things for you. I can have all your same interests. I can adjust with your life, yada yada yada, like, the number of things we overlap on, I guess. But I was saying that I have a friend who I've talked about here on the podcast before, her son was in the NICU for nine months, and as much as I can want to be there for her, I can support her in those ways, right? I have not had a child in the NICU so I can't fully understand her experience. I think we think of intimacy as right, me doing everything I can for her, to be there for her in this experience. But there's another piece of intimacy, of like, I want her to have somebody who fully gets that experience, like another NICU mom, and I am so supportive of her, making those friends, for that support that she needs, for that connection she needs. And I will ask her, or like she actually sent me a text message recently, she was at an event to support the hospital that her son was at, and it was a selfie with her and another NICU mom that she had met at the event. And she was like, ah, Nicu moms, right? And I'm sending her a message back, being like, oh my god, I love NICU moms. Like, Yay, because in my mind, isn't intimacy, wanting her to have what she needs, and I can't fulfill that, but I like, Gosh darn it. Do I want her so badly that it's like giving me chills to have that isn't that intimacy? Oh yeah, that was a rhetorical question, but like, for people listening who have never thought about it that way, I'm just like, come on, people, let's adjust our thinking a little bit, because I think that's intimacy.

Jacob Marquez: 51:14

Oh yeah. I mean intimacy, if you really boil it down, what is intimacy? It's vulnerability. It's seeing someone right like what you just described, you saw them and you actively, like you selflessly, wanted them to achieve, like a higher self, right, their goals to achieve something that you knew would bring them happiness and joy, and that's 100% intimacy. I'm sure this is very common, but where I heard it was a youth group. And I'm not religious like that, but all of my friends were and I grew up in a very small town, it was like the thing you did. So I went to youth group, and this pastor, I guess the youth group leader, was talking about intimacy between two partners, but it applies to everyone. He was like intimacy into you, I see or into me. I see something like that into me. You see he said in some way that, yeah, that's what it is. It's you're seeing someone for who they are, and you're appreciating it. It's like art. You see it for what it is, you appreciate it, and then you dive deeper to really understand what it is, and you appreciate it even more. And then you want to place it in the appropriate place, so that it shines and is displayed to really showcase the beauty of it. Mm. Hmm, and that's intimacy.

Alex Alexander: 52:46

I like that. I think that's a beautiful way for people to think about it. And then when you reframe it that way, I guess the hope is, if we start actually digging into some of these terms, we just throw around, then you start looking at the way you're interacting. You know, how can that be a reframe? And I am not saying, you know it all. I'm not saying I know it all. Just sounds like we are both, like, actively trying to find even the smallest reframes, and how can we apply them to ourselves and our relationships. Yeah, I like to remind people of that. Like, I don't know it all at all. Like, absolutely not. I know I get on here with the mic, but like, I'm also actively working on my connections and my skills. Yeah, all the time. Yeah. With that, I think an interesting way to close out this episode, because I think we've really shown that in a lot of ways, like community and connection is a very big value for you, and you're putting at the forefront in a lot of areas of your life. I mean, like work wise, you're building an app around it. You're actively out here trying to build in person community. You're prioritizing your own relationships and I mean, just doing the work in therapy, like there's so many small ways I could point out from this episode. But is there an area, I don't know if this is too vulnerable of a question, but we'll see. Is there an area that you are like actively trying to, I don't know, prioritize connection or deepen connection, or is there like a connection goal, something you're like actively focusing on right now, an area you want to change for yourself.

Jacob Marquez: 54:30

Well, in the app, you can set goals you can't, but that's the chair.

Alex Alexander: 54:34

I mean, it's not, because I think that's really important, but I love that.

Jacob Marquez: 54:38

Is there a connection goal that I'm actively working on? Here's one is going to go against everything that I said. So going back to what you said, I don't know everything. And even there's certain things that I'm like, okay, that's that's a challenging one, yeah, there's this friend, okay, that we had such a deep connection. There was an intimacy there. There was a deep intimacy there. And during the pandemic, there was a conversation that was had that probably happened at the wrong time, in the wrong circumstances, that led to us not talking for the past five years. And it's a connection that I am actively working towards, taking the vulnerable step of calling them. So that's one person that, if I see them on my app, I'm like,

Alex Alexander: 55:31

Yeah,

Jacob Marquez: 55:32

I'm gonna need to come back to that one.

Alex Alexander: 55:33

Yeah. So you're trying to work up to hitting the call button, hitting the call button, yeah, wow. There's no way you're alone in that experience. And honestly, like, I can think of a person that if that name like I would have the same goal, not because of some blow up fight just, yeah, like a drift over time, life changes, things like that, yeah, but I do miss them. But it just feels like a lot of time has passed. A lot of things have happened, and I feel like in my mind, it's like, where do I start? Where do we even start? I don't know if I've shared this on the podcast. I shared it in my newsletter, but I'm gonna tell you a story, because maybe it'll be, I don't know, maybe it'll give you some hope, or, I don't know, it'll give you something. So I have a friend. We have been friends since eighth grade, and it's always been one of those friendships, like we were talking about earlier, where it's like we have periods where we are really connected. We talk all the time, we like, meet up all the time, and then periods where we will go, like, a year, two years, where we just talk very little, and then something changes, right? There's a move or a life shift, or something happens, and we kind of have this, like, up and down. It's been that way since eighth grade, long time. And she got married, like three years ago, maybe, and we were talking, we're chatting like life was good, but her wedding was kind of last minute, just like a small wedding. They did like a small family friend's wedding, and I was invited, but I had another friend getting married across the country that I had known about getting married for like, a year, like we had booked our tickets like, a year ago, and it was just some random friend, like, my husband was the best man in that wedding, right? So I have like, two very close friends getting married on the same day across the country, except that I've known about one wedding for like, a year, and this other wedding, I think, was like couple months before, and I already felt terrible about having to tell her, like, Hey, I already have tickets across the country. I'm not able to make it. And so I came up with all these really kind of elaborate plans of how I was going to celebrate her afterwards. Words, but I should have come up with something simpler, because they were so elaborate that I just never really pulled them off. And I kept meaning to call her, but then I started feeling ashamed of the fact that I hadn't done something for her, and we've been friends since eighth grade. Like, oh my gosh, I feel so bad. And that kind of stretched on for like two years. And if her name had come up in your app, I would have had a pause about what I even say, what I even do. Okay, so we get two years in to this whole thing, and I'm still thinking about her regularly, trying to figure out how I'm gonna mend this fence like I assumed that she was mad at me because I couldn't make it to her wedding, and then I didn't really do anything about it. She calls me out of the blue, actually speaking to your sentiment earlier, she calls me out of the blue, and I immediately answer. And I'm like, Hey, I am so sorry. Like, I just want to start this conversation by saying I'm sorry, because I've built this whole story up. She's like, What do you mean? I'm sorry. I was like, Oh, okay. Like, what have we both been thinking? And it turns out that her, one of her parents, had had, like, needed hip surgery, and she was the main caregiver, and a bunch of dynamics in her family had changed, just like a lot of things had gone down that had nothing to do with me. Yeah, nothing to do with me. And so she felt bad because she thought that she had just ignored me while she dealt with her family stuff. And I felt bad because I thought she was mad at me because I couldn't make it to her wedding, and I hadn't done anything about it, and we just spent two years like that.

Jacob Marquez: 59:34

I know it's wild.

Alex Alexander: 59:36

Isn't that crazy? We just get so in our head about what might happen. Now there was no blow up fight, I will say that there was no big conversation like I'm sure that's going to require a conversation on your end, but you never know, or maybe not, maybe it was bigger to you than it was to them. I don't know

Jacob Marquez: 59:56

it's bigger to them than it was to me. But then again, that's a narrative I'm telling myself. I don't I don't actually know, because we haven't talked in five years. Are you talking to your friend?

Alex Alexander: 1:00:08

Yeah, I just went and saw her and snuggled her new baby a few weeks ago. And, yeah, just hung out at her house. I'm not to say that. Oh, actually, like, after that conversation, I feel like things have just kind of dropped back into their old normal, you know, she's one of those friends where I can go hang out with her, and it's kind of like no time has passed, even though, you know, I'm in her house with her baby and her husband, and like, we're not in eighth grade. Like time has definitely passed. Circumstances are definitely different. But, yeah, we can just kind of like, pick up. We haven't had to have a ton of other big conversations about what happened. But man, I really got my own way for two years.

Jacob Marquez: 1:00:52

Yeah, so call,

Alex Alexander: 1:00:56

yeah.Well, now that I told that long story after I said, we got to wrap up the episode. I just wanna, sometimes that happens, it's a good conversation. I just wanna thank you for coming on and chatting and chatting and honestly for all your vulnerability. I hope it inspires other people to maybe just, I guess this is all normal. Yeah, everybody's having these feelings about their friendships.

Jacob Marquez: 1:01:16

Yeah, none of us are going through a unique experience, you know. So let's talk about it.

Alex Alexander: 1:01:22

Yeah? All right. Well, thanks, Jacob, thank you.

Alex Alexander [Narration]: 1:01:26

We all know I love a conversation like this one where we're getting into the nitty gritty of how we're all connecting, and you find me saying sorry you did what Jacob's approach to relationships, from calling people out of the blue to appreciate friends who serve different purposes in our lives. It's a reminder that maybe, just maybe, in some senses, we're over complicating how connection is supposed to work. Let's all think about that in our day to day lives, myself included. Where is my brain running wild? Where am I setting rules that who made up those rules? Now I want to thank Jacob for his willingness to be vulnerable in this episode, there are so many places talking about the friend he hasn't talked to in five years, the therapy work he's done around enoughness, the way he thinks about intimacy. You know, a big takeaway for me, and maybe a reason I was immediately drawn to even just one conversation with Jacob, is that this kind of openness, I find, is what creates real community and connection, even with someone who isn't my closest, oldest, deepest friend, like wow, what a beautiful conversation we've had. Add speaking of community. If you're in the Seattle area and you want to experience the kind of in person connection that Jacob is creating, check out Seattle's Best Brunch at seattlesbestbrunch.com. It will also be linked in the show notes. It's a community of creatives focused on collaborating, educating and highlighting art from the Seattle area, and as someone who deeply appreciates the work it takes to build in person community. I can't recommend supporting events like this enough. We need these types of events. These are the types of events that people are looking for to break in to the communities that they are interested in. Now, if today's conversation got you thinking about your own friendships, maybe there's someone you've been meaning to call or maybe you're ready to sit down and do a little reflection about the expectations you have from a certain relationship. I would love to hear about it. I'm always here for a conversation. Please reach out, whether that's a DM, an email, a voice note. There are so many ways that you and I can hang out and connect with that. I'll see you next week.

Podcast Intro/Outro: 1:03:59

Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you. But don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at alexalex.chat. You can also find me on Instagram. My handle, @itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Now if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend. Tell them you found it interesting. And use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.